NPR Interview

If you didn't have a chance to listen to my NPR interview on the Abramoff scandal, here's the transcript:


Today we're talking about lobbying and how this might change in light of the criminal charges filed against superlobbyist Jack Abramoff. And joining us now is Matt Lewis, a conservative commentator and consultant who blogs at Human Events Online. He joins us from his offices here in Washington.

And it's nice to have you on the program.

Mr. MATT LEWIS (Human Events Online): Thank you for having me.

CONAN: Your most recent post about Abramoff was titled, quote, "Story of 2006?" -- question mark-- "Let's Hope Not."(ph) Do you think that's the way most conservatives are responding?

Mr. LEWIS: Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that what we had yesterday was this story going from--it has been inside baseball up until now. I mean, this story's really been out for quite a while now, and people on NPR or listeners to NPR and people who read The Washington Post knew about it. But I think yesterday was the first time that the average American, you know, in Des Moines, Iowa, or Fargo, North Dakota, is becoming aware of this guy Jack Abramoff.

CONAN: And we may become much more aware of Jack Abramoff. Are Democrats, you think, going to try to take advantage of this, and do you think it's going to work?

Mr. LEWIS: Well, I absolutely think they will try to take advantage. I think that if you look at the--Nancy Pelosi and the other Democrat leaders, it's pretty much standard operating procedure for them to try to exploit this sort of thing. And so far it seems to me that anytime they've gone overboard, it has backfired. I think they would be wise to kind of--you know, there's a maxim in politics" 'Don't interfere with your opponent when he's in the process of destroying themselves.' But as a conservative, I'm not really in the position of giving them advice; if I were, it would be to shut up for a while.

CONAN: Well, what about--what advice might you have for conservatives? Should they play defense, or is it time to clean house?

Mr. LEWIS: Well, that's a great question. I think--here's the deal--as a movement, you know, the conservative movement, there are not only grassroots activists around the country but leaders here in Washington, DC, who are fine, upstanding people who sacrificed their lives because they believe in the cause. And if it is indeed proven that someone who calls themselves a conservative has done something unethical, then I think we need to wash our hands of them. And you know, for some of the people that are still accused, they haven't been found guilty--obviously Mr. Abramoff has pled guilty--pleaded guilty. But as a movement, we have to be beyond reproach. And our loyalty is to principle, not to individuals, 'cause individuals will always let you down.

CONAN: Well, here's an e-mail. We were talking earlier with one of our earlier guests about John McCain and some of the pluses that he may get out of this. An e-mailer, Jonathan in Oakland, California, writes, 'Does anyone remember that McCain was among the senators implicated in the Keating Five scandal, which this,' he says, 'closely resembles?'

Mr. LEWIS: Yeah, and the thing is that the American public has a very short memory, and no one except for us, you know, inside politics, inside baseball, we're the only ones who remember that about John McCain. But you're right, it seems a bit ironic and somewhat opportunistic.

CONAN: Let's get another caller on the line. This is Ken, Ken calling from Ithaca, New York.

KEN (Caller): Hi. I'll ask a very quick question that follows right on to the comments just made. I'm wondering if there are any senators or representatives who could actually be forced out by this scandal, which, after all, we've heard about the Senate being very barely in play and the House not--might change the dynamic. And I'll take my question off the air. Thank you.

CONAN: All right. All right, Ken. And I assume what Ken means is forced to resign basically before the election, open seats then instead of contested seats.

Mr. LEWIS: Right. That's a very good question because, you know, there may be political implications even if people aren't forced to resign. And in terms of the political implications, timing's very important. If bad news breaks in March, then incumbents, who win 99 percent of the time, are probably still safe. We've created a country where it's very difficult to beat an incumbent. So if the story breaks in March, we're probably OK; if it breaks in September or October, we're in trouble. But I think that right now--and I don't have any inside information, but the one guy who appears to be the most in trouble is Representative Ney. And he's been mentioned more than anybody else in the news. So not--without any inside information, I think that he's someone who's probably on that short list of people who are concerned right now.

CONAN; Well, the person with whom Mr. Abramoff is most closely associated, though, is former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay.

Mr. LEWIS: Yes. I am a huge fan of Tom DeLay, and so far--and I stand by this--it appears to me that there certainly are people who may have been in his employ who may be involved in this, but so far there does not seem to be any indication at all that Representative DeLay was in any way involved. But he is the guy that people--that the liberals particularly would love to take down, simply because he's been so effective as a Republican. And whether or not they're able to do that, the prospects of him maintaining his status as majority leader, you know, took a big hit yesterday as well.

CONAN: Returning--the prospect of returning as majority leader; he had...

Mr. LEWIS: That's right.

CONAN: Yeah. And he still...

Mr. LEWIS: Perception is reality, and even though there's absolutely no evidence he had anything to do with it, his name's been in the news associated with it.

CONAN: It will be interesting now--do you think--Republicans have been holding off about having an election to replace him, leaving that position open for him to return to should he resolve his present legal difficulties in Texas; it looks like that may take a while. Do you think this might spur them to move that election up?

Mr. LEWIS: It might. In fact, I think I saw today in The Post that Newt Gingrich, former Speaker Newt Gingrich--I believe he is now saying that Republicans should go ahead with an election. But the fact is Tom DeLay has been, without a doubt, the most effective Republican bar none. And there's a lot of folks who are in office because of him. He's been a tremendous leader. He even made his own personal district in Sugar Land, Texas, less Republican to help more Republicans get elected, so there's a lot of loyalty to him. So it's going to be very interesting how it plays out.

CONAN: Well, let;s get another caller in, Sharon, Sharon in Portland, Oregon.

SHARON (Caller): Yes. Good morning, Neal.

CONAN: Good afternoon where I am, but go ahead.

SHARON: Good afternoon, I guess, there, yeah. My question to your guest right now is he made a comment regarding Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats, that--and I believe the verbiage he used was they were exploiting or going to exploit the situation. And my question...

CONAN: Well, to be fair, I asked him whether they would. But, yeah, go ahead.

SHARON: Yeah. My question is, if this situation was reversed, would he not believe the Republicans would exploit to the maximum, as they have done in the past, in the same way?

Mr. LEWIS: Well, I think you make a good point in that, you know, a lot of what happens in politics has little to do with philosophy or ideology and a lot to do with pointing the finger. And I don't want to--I'm not going to pretend that both sides aren't sometimes guilty of it. But I will say I think that sometimes it's smart politics to not get involved. But I don't think that--certain leaders have a hard time keeping their mouths shut, and I think that Nancy Pelosi is in that category.

CONAN: All right. Sharon, thanks.

SHARON: Thank you.

CONAN: Thanks very much for the call. But...

Mr. LEWIS: Howard Dean, too.

CONAN: Howard Dean--well, they're both in positions where people do ask them to respond to various things in the news. But it's hard for conservatives and Republicans to argue at this point, 'Well, you know, it's just sort of cyclical; it just happens when people are in power too long. Look what happened to the Democrats,' 'cause the implication is that Republicans have been in power too long.

Mr. LEWIS: Yeah. I mean, there's certainly that. And one of my mentors, Lyn Nofziger, who's a former press secretary for President Reagan, recently did a story in The Washington Times where he made--he basically said he thinks Republicans have been in too long. There's a lot of conservatives who are taking sort of a different angle with this, and they look at it like this is sort of a result of big government in that, you know, whether Republican big government or Democrat big government, big government is bad. So there are certain bloggers and conservatives who are taking that angle.

My personal opinion is that I think that unfortunately on both sides of the aisle, there are some people who--let's take conservatives. I think some people start off as good conservatives who truly believe the things that we espouse and along the way they are corrupted. And then I think there's other people who--it's been very popular in the last 10 years to be a Republican. And they're basically conservatives out of convenience because it's a good job opportunity, and they're charlatans and they're not true believers. And either way, as a conservative, we simply must stand on principle. And if one of our own is proven to have done something illegal or unethical, then we have to call a spade a spade.

CONAN: Let's see if we can get one more caller in, Jake. Jake's calling us from Tallahassee.

JAKE (Caller): Hi. Yeah.

CONAN: Go ahead, Jake.

JAKE: I wanted to ask--the initial speaker, your initial guest, said something about reform and talked about truth in legislation and so forth. I was wondering whether the current gentleman thought would be appropriate to prevent this expression of special interest power, what kind of reforms would he propose in an ideal world for doing away with this sort of thing once and for all.

CONAN: Well, Matt Lewis, I know that Senators McCain and Feingold, a Republican and a Democrat--and those two names together have a certain resonance in reform issues--have both separately proposed lobbying reform bills.

Mr. LEWIS: Right. Here's the one message that I want to make plain and clear, that Jack Abramoff is not indicative--or this behavior is not indicative of the way things are in Washington or of even lobbying. This is a very rare case. And let's be frank that McCain-Feingold has not helped things. I mean, if--we wouldn't be having this scan--here we are facing potentially what could be one of the worst, you know, scandals, and it's after McCain-Feingold.

And, you know, I'm one of those people that believe that as a citizen of the United States in terms of donating to a campaign, you should be able to donate to a campaign as much as you want, but it should be fully disclosed, a disclosure and transparency. And I would say that if there is reform, that it shouldn't be limiting freedom of speech or freedom to donate; it should be making sure that things are transparent. And I would support that kind of reform.

CONAN: Jake, thanks very much for the call.

JAKE: Thanks, guys.

CONAN: And, Matt Lewis, thank you for your time today.

Mr. LEWIS: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

CONAN: Matt Lewis blogs at Human Events Online, and he joined us from his office here in Washington, DC.

You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
January 4, 2006